At 3pm yesterday in Ithaca, New York I walked into the Parks Law Office to close on the house. Fifty-five minutes and 300 signatures later I walked out with the keys to the house on 1960 Slaterville Road. Woo Hoo!
I spent the rest of the afternoon cleaning up the first floor and most of today running around picking up new stuff and taking care of a few other pieces of business. I'll come up with a full report on the first full day of owning a house tomorrow afternoon.
The dig was scheduled for 9am Monday morning. I drove out to Syracuse the night before and stayed with Andrea's parents. I left Fayetteville/Syracuse at about 7:15 for the 90 minute drive to Ithaca. In Syracuse the day was cool but very sunny. As I drove down I-81 fog rolled in. The closer I got the Ithaca the foggier it go. At one point I couldn't see more than a hundred feet ahead of me. I found some traffic in Cortland and made my way through Ithaca, arriving at the house at 1960 Slaterville at 8:40am. Then I waited.
The first car to arrive was Cindy S. from Tompkin's County Environmental Health. A few minutes later Amanda showed up. We walked around the property and looked at how high the grass was and how dug up the yard was. I kept thinking something was wrong with Stinky's being late, because of Friday's mini-debacle. It was only 9:03 at that point. By 9:15, Stinky's still hadn't arrived. I was sure they cancelled our appointment based on a rumor. Cindy said Stinky's is never late and that they are usually early. This wasn't all that comforting. Amanda, Cindy and I looked at our phones - no service available. Amanda elected to drive out to the top of the hill to get signal and try to figure out what was going on.
Around 9:25, Amanda was gone and Stinky's hadn't arrived. Cindy showed me some papers in the Environmental Services file. The house was built in 1951. In 1966 there was some "weekend" work done on the septic system that was noted by a health department official in a handwritten page long note. "Weekend" work is when the owner and a septic company makes adjustments to the system without having the health department present to make sure everything is legal and follows public health codes. Most septic systems last about 20 years. This one was at least 38 years old, if not the original system from 1951. Cindy said the whole thing would probably need to be replaced. This was before even a shovel was put into the dirt.
Amanda returned. The truck with the backhoe had been in a fender bender, but it was minor and everyone was ok. They were on their way and would be arriving soon. By 9:40 the backhoe was off the trailer and moving into position to dig the "Deep Hole". Woody and Danielle, from Stinky's lifted the cement septic tank cover and looked in. Then they began to dig. They found "the box" which sends the waste to the field. Then they began to dig for the pipe that delivered waste to the field. The next thing they found was a while PVC pipe that was cracked open on the top - and by their estimate on the bottom too. The only thing that kept the entire hole from filling with ... stuff ... was that noone had been living in the house for four months.
The PVC pipe was definitely post 1966 work, which meant that more "weekend" work had been done to this system. Cindy couldn't estimate how much or how long ago the work had been done. She did not her findings in her file. The next step was to see how the soil and ground was in the area where the new system would need to go. The cost of the system depends a lot on the ability of the ground to naturally leech waste (and clean it) into the ground. More clay means that waste can't sink down and a more expensive sand filter is needed. Guess what we found? In the picture above, Woody is digging down, about five feet into mostly thick, mudlike, clay.
At this point, Cindy was in the process of officially failing the septic system. She made her recommendations for what kind of septic system needed to be installed. Danielle from Stinky's made note and promised an estimate by Monday afternoon. Cindy had me sign off on the permit and after I paid her she headed out to her next septic system of the day.
Danielle and Woody did a little survey work to make sure that there was enough of a slope on the hill. If there isn't enough of a slope, then a pump has to be put in the system to make sure the ... stuff ... flows down hill. These pumps work alright, but they are conductors for lightning. Apparently lightning likes water and will hit the ground and run to the water and to the pump. There's also a cost factor of about $1000 for the adding of the pump. Guess what they found? There was enough of a slope! So we don't need to worry about all of that pump business.
By 10:15 everything was done. Woody had filled all the holes in and had made the surface look at least as good as it had when they arrived that morning. After a major underground project like a septic tank, leech field or even a deep hole, the surface is messed up quite a bit. The owner of the house has the option of having the septic company (or a landscaper) come in and smooth out the ground to make it mowable. Lawn mowers have a hard time getting over softball sized rocks and clumps of mud and clay. This expense runs about $500 - $600. Wheeee!!!
Everyone left and I headed to downtown Ithaca to wait for the results of the estimate. A number of hours later I picked it up from Stinky's. It looked like it was in our range and Stinky's would even discount the cost of the deep hole from the total. After working through the numbers once more and making sure we were held paying too much of the septic job I talked to Amanda and my closing lawfirm and told them that we could go ahead with the closing. I hoped the rest of the small details were minor (in cost and in headache power) and turned the car towards Boston and headed home.
Six weeks ago, on Wednesday, August 12th, we got some good news about our house in Ithaca. The close date had been set - 3pm on Wednesday, August 18th. You all know what has happened since then:
Does the bad news ever cease?
Wednesday News
No new is bad news
Another Day, No Change in Status
Dying to buy
What she "ain't" gonna do
I know...you want information
Phone calls just poured in (for 10 minutes anyway)
Two weeks worth of Home Buying Details
Of Course...
The Dig: Part 1: Pictures
This morning, around 10:30am, I received a phone call from our closing attorney's office - a new close date has been set! Monday, September 27th at 3pm in Ithaca, New York! I'll be driving out there Monday morning and staying the night in the house at 1960 Slaterville Road! This is potentially very exciting, but as Avery and I have learned all throughout this process, we are never sure of anything with this deal.
A few hanging details:
-The water bacteria test is missing. The seller should have had this done before the previous close, but now a search is on to see if the test has been done and the results have been approved
-The home loan that we had expired and will cost some amount of money to re-issue. In addition rates have changed a slight amount since August 18th - which may cost us a little (or a lot) more money.
-I have to try to confirm a date with Stinky's to get started on the work before the long cold Ithaca winter begins. (This isn't related to the close date, just the date that we can safely (without flooding the neighborhood with our septic system) move in and live in the house).
Other than that things are working out smoothly. Stay tuned for Monday's "Deep Hole" report.
A little delay in noting this minor adventure in home buying. As you read last Thursday morning, all was on auto-pilot for the house. We were given authority to go in and dig a "Deep Hole" and have the health department there to check things out.
I was in Boston for a couple of days with Avery and on the return trip to Berlin I made a short list of things to do Friday afternoon. My first thing was to call Stinky's and my attorney and my realtor. I walked in the door and saw the answering machine blinking with the number 2 in the led display. Hmm...
Stinky's, the septic company, called Wednesday afternoon and Friday around noontime to ask if I still wanted to have the dig. They got a message "from my attorney" that I might want to cancel the dig. Please call them back! Whoah! I'm planning on driving out there and someone made them think we weren't going to want the dig. What happened?
I spent the next 90 minutes on the phone (calling Stinky's and leaving messages twice), talking to my attorney (who never called Stinky's) and having him contact the other attorney's, leaving a message with my realtor and then finally calling the health department to make sure everything was still on. It was. I decided that was enough (they wouldn't cancel just on hearsay...right?). I hung up the phone about 2 hours after I got home with everything back on auto-pilot for Monday morning's dig in Ithaca. How Stinky's heard incorrectly is still a mystery.
So much for an easy few days of not worrying about the house.
My last house-in-New York update was on September 2nd. A few things have happened since then. Here's the detail of the last 12 days.
Thursday Sept. 2nd, about 2pm: Amanda called, the seller wants to know by the end of the day Friday (9/3) when the dig will be. I haven't called any companies yet, so I don't know when it will be.
by 5pm: I've called four companies, left messages with two of them. The other two don't want to give an estimate on "There's something wrong, how much will it cost to fix" and neither want to commit to any estimate or work without the health department getting involved. The health department looking at the septic system will determine what is wrong and what needs to be fixed.
I also talked to Amanda to tell her that the health department needs to get involved. Because of the holiday on Monday, I won't be able to get estimates until at least Tuesday.
Friday: The seller wants me to email her and tell her that I will pay for any estimates.
Tuesday, September 7th (while Avery is in surgery): I get a phone call from one of the septic repair companies. They give me an estimate for work on a "Failed leech field" in the area we are looking at on Slaterville Road. To be absolutely sure about the estimate they will need to dig a "Deep Hole" and have the health department look at it to inspect the situation. The estimate is nice, but it isn't 100% accurate without the "Deep Hole".
I call Sue and Amanda and Jason and try to find out if I can order the Deep Hole dug on the seller's property. I wait for an answer.
Tuesday evening and Wednesday daytime, no news...hmmm...
Wednesday 9/8, I talk to Sue and Amanda late in the day, seems like through some miscommunication the seller thinks we are ready to close. I steer the ship back to the negotiating table. I find out we are allowed to have the dig. I call the company to schedule the work. (Avery is moved to 12 Ellison)
Thursday afternoon, 9/9, I get a call with word that the seller wants to know that we will buy the place and close on the place next week, no matter the outcome of the dig. I say no way. I talk to my closing lawyer again and Amanda and around and around we go, hoping the deal will still be allowed to make progress. With the information from the dig, we will be able to decide what we can afford to do next. Simple as that. Information will make a decision possible.
Friday, I am still grappling with the fact that the seller doesn't want us to have enough time to find out the answer to the dig results. I call my lawyer and broker and at the time they both seem to feel that the seller can just walk away from the deal, unless we sue her.
Friday, 9/10 (from Berlin, while Avery is getting physical therapy in order to get out of the hospital a couple hours from now) I talk to my parents, who are just 24 hours away from heading out for a roadtrip around the hurricane infused east coast, about the situation. They mostly agree that we can't decide without the results of the dig. They suggest we buy it at the current deal and roll the dice to see what happens with the septic. The range of the dice roll is $7000 to $25000. A little too much for me. My parents have gone through a bunch of Title V septic issues with the house on the cape and the house in Berlin and wonder if NY state has the same laws. My mom suggests looking up the health departments to find out the laws.
I call up the Tompkins County Health Department and later the Caroline (city where the house is) building inspectors office. They both have some thoughts on the situation, including:
*A Dye test should be performed by an independent inspector, engineer, or public health worker
*The problem with the original dye test failing could be because of the heavy rain of the summer in Ithaca
*The problem could just be a broken pipe that is causing a leech field dye test fail, something that wouldn't even be touched even with a $7000+ leech field replacement
*The house can be reported as being in health code violation because it failed a certified dye test - this means that the owner has 30 days to fix the problem, or be taken to court by the town/county and fined in the amount that it would cost to fix the problem (so the town can fix it and stop the chances of a public health issue - household sewerage/septic running across the ground to the neighborhood)
*Talking about the problem with these two does not equate to reporting the problem, the reporting of failure has a formal process (that we could use to get the seller to completely fix the problem with her own money)
I feel enlightened about the house and our options. I talk to our lawyer (David) and we are then given the extension to get the answers before the decision has to be made.
Saturday and Sunday - A few days off of thinking about the house, we will get a date set by Stinky's early on Monday about when the dig will be.
Monday morning (9/13), right on time, we find out that the seller wants to know that the "DIg has been scheduled by noontime tomorrow". These seven words cause about a dozen phone calls to the septic company doing the work, my closing lawyer (David) and Amanda. My first thought, and the eventual answer, is that the seller wants to know "by noontime tomorrow" that the dig "has been scheduled". Which means that the date and time of the dig is set by noontime Tuesday. There was a lot of discussion around the thought that she wanted to know that the dig had happened by noontime, tomorrow". This causes yet another day of strife in buying the house.
Tuesday (9/14), we are cleared for getting the dig set. I wait until 2:45 (two hours and forty-five minutes late) for a call from Stinky's with the dig date and time. Instead I get a call from Amanda. The seller is waiting. I call Stinky's - they have just JUST gotten the date and time. It is set for Monday Morning at 9am (September 20th). I report to Amanda and David.
I get a call back. When will the results be in writing with a quote.
I call Stinky's back. The results will be done in writing with a quote by the end of the day on Monday. Everyone is ok and smiling. Monday we will get to the bottom of this. Yay!
I get a call later Tuesday afternoon, around 6pm. It's Amanda. The seller now wants to know if it was us, or Stinky's or the Health Department that is holding up the time until next Monday. I tell Amanda it is the Health Department scheduler. Amanda says she thought as much and tells me that she'll call back if there's anything else. Otherwise we're all set for the dig on Monday morning and answers on Monday afternoon.
One other positive note was that the health department guys I talked to suggested contacting someone from Tompkins County - that someone is going to be the person who does the inspection on Monday. Yay!
Today the phone rang, and rang, and rang, and rang again. All between 9:15 and 9:30 this morning. A quick summary of today's conversations:
With Amanda (Our fabulous real estate broker):
She thinks its a good idea for us to get two more estimates on the septic work. She's going to try to get a copy of the septic report from the seller's attorney (via our attorney).
With Amanda (again):
She talked to Sue (our wonderful litigation attorney who has been helping out) about getting the additional estimates. We've decided to phrase the question as "There's something wrong with this septic system. Can you tell me what is wrong and what you can do to fix it and how much it will cost?"
With Sally (our on-her-toes insurance agent in Ithaca):
She wondered if we were in Ithaca and if we were avoiding signing our home insurance. After explaining the details, she suggested we take possesion before the work gets done (After the money is put into escrow, of course). This will give us a better handle on watching all the work get done in the yard. She's holding onto our policy until we close.
With Amanda (yes, again):
We've decided that I can (legally) and should (instead of paying someone else to) make the calls to septic companies in Tomkins country. I have to make sure to ask them first, "How much do you charge for an estimate?" After we set a date and time to go to the site to check out the situation, all I have to do is hand them off to Amanda (who is in Ithaca) and she can let them into the house.
Amanda emailed me a list of septic companies. I'll start calling Thursday morning (today!) and try to get something set up for tomorrow or early next week. I'm crossing my fingers that all three estimates we get are in very close proximity to one another. I don't really know what we'll do if they come back at $4K, $7200K (the original from gaggle), and $15K. We'll cross that bridge when we come to it.
Information peaked around 3pm on Friday. I should have let you know this a little earlier, but we're just sitting on this nugget of data because I have a feeling we won't be getting much more news anytime soon.
I mentioned on Thursday that the seller offered to buy us out. She was willing to pay for all of our expenses to date (home inspection, appraisal, rental truck, anti-depressents, etc.) that we have incurred in the purchase (non-purchase) of the house. Our litigation lawyer, Sue, told us to try to get a tally of all those expenses.
My parents, Avery and I sat around the dinner table - and then out on the porch - and then later in the kitchen - and for a little bit while watching TV - and finally in the basement - talking about the home, the buyout and the court case. Should we sue? Should we continue court-free negotiations? Should we give up and take the buy out? We had made our decision, and then pondered and modified it throughout the day on Thursday. I tried calling Sue back a couple of times with no luck in getting to her. Friday morning I called again, she was at the courthouse.
Friday afternoon, the new news came in. Sue called back. I was hoping that we'd be able to tell her what we had decided on and what we wanted to go back to the seller with. Instead, Sue spoke first.
"Did you get all your numbers to add up?"
"huh?"
"You were going to count up how much the seller would pay you"
"Oh...no, I haven't done that, we've..." (decided to...)
"Don't worry about it, I just talked to the seller's lawyer, the seller is now offering $4000 to put into escrow to pay for the work."
So now the house IS back for sale, the seller IS willing to talk, we DO have a chance. Before we make a decision on this we want to know fully what the septic problem is and what the solution is and what the solution will cost AND how much time it will take. These are the exact four questions I asked of the septic issues (which we thought were real, then found out were just imaginary, and now we know they are real again!) way back on August 11th!
Sue is going to find out if she can get two more septic service companies to put estimates on the job. This would make us all a little happier, as far as what the total cost will be. It could be $4,005; $7,000; $10,000; $25,000! We don't know and we aren't really up to accepting a $4,000 donation to a $25,000 bill. Why such a range? Well, the original $7,000 estimate was from "the highest of the high end of septic contractors" (at least that's how we were told). This means that the cost SHOULD be lower than $7,000. Why the variance up to $25,000? My parents have to put in a septic system here in Berlin. The estimate is way above $15,000. My neighbor Keith works on septic jobs. He's seen them range up to (and exceeding) $25,000. Now this is for a major repair or a new septic system, but nonetheless a possible high end figure.
One other now one costs (again, from neighbor Keith), there is usually engineering required and surveying, before a shovel can even hit the ground. What if the house is close to wetlands or there is bedrock or the neighbor's well is close to where we need to put ours? All this is likely to be above and beyond the $7000, of which currently the seller is offering only $4,000 and legally - based on our purchase agreement, she cannot sell us the house without making sure the septic system is in good working order.
So as I said, we are waiting now. We are waiting for our litigation lawyer to get back to us with information about the original write up (what was the exact problem with the septic) and later (though, hopefully sooner) she'll call with information about two additional estimates. When we know...you'll know...thanks for tuning in.
The details of the home and the case against the seller will continue to be posted here...at least until we're advised not to.
I was able to talk to Sue today, to find out the details of the lunch meeting she had yesterday. "She (the seller) ain't gonna sell you the house". The seller (who will remain nameless in this blog) has "lost the job" she was planning on and can't afford the septic work. Before all this septic business came up, records showed that she was selling the house for $24,000 more than she bought it for. I think I can see one place where money could come from to pay for the septic work. She has had the house for just 27 months. The seller has decided to stay in the house - not sell and not make money off the house. The details of the job she lost are foggy, as well as the details of her continuing to live in the house. We've been to the house four times since June 5th. No one was or is living there. Two days ago the place was empty when we stopped by and the mailbox was closed with an elastic band (that looked like it was rotted to the box).
In the details about suing for possesion (or for completion of the deal), it will take at least, at a minimum, possible much longer, it will take at least six months for this case to come to trial. In addition, this is the first time our lawyer has heard of forcing a sale due to failure to perform on a purchase agreement on the septic clause. This sounds like an uphill battle.
The seller has made a buy out offer. She's willing to pay for all the costs we have incured in getting this far with the house purchase. This includes fees to the lawyers and brokers and inspectors and appraisers and rental truck companies and perhaps a few other details.
Our offer to her is that negotiation is still on the table. We can work together to find more quotes for the work. Perhaps it will be hundreds or thousands less than the original $7000 estimate. This offer will continue to be on the table as we start the process of litigation on the property. She signed an agreement. We're going to have the court decide how she fulfills that agreement.
Tomorrow we talk to Sue, the litigation lawyer, about the next steps. Eight days ago we were packed and ready. Today we are looking to go to court.
(Notes on Wednesday, August 25th in Ithaca, NY)
We'd really like to buy a house. We found one we like and we're trying to do what we can to get it. Today, I am hoping that Sue, our litigation attorney is going to be able to talk to John, the seller's attorney.
I started today with a meeting with Amanda our real estate agent. We talked for about an hour and a half about what we should do next. I left her office with plans to pick up Avery at 3pm and do some more thinking and research. Should we just wait? Should we look for other places? What price range are we looking for? What features? What distance from Cornell? How perfect was the 1960 house?
My next stop was with Jason our mortgage broker. We talked about the entire details of the last week. We went over what we could do, what we should do. The last day the mortgage was good for was last Wednesday, the 18th. Jason renewed it for the next seven days (until today!) at a cost of 1/8 of a point of our loan. He then renewed it again today for the next 7 days, for a cost of another 1/8. It's really crazy to be spending money this way. If only we had been able to close last week.
I called Sue from Jason's office and left a message. It was 12:30 when I left to drive around Ithaca and the surrounding areas to the southwest. At 1:30 I got a voice message on my cell phone. Sue had just returned from lunch with John (the seller's attorney) and had some information. I called right back. Sue was not at the office. She would be returning in 30 minutes (at about 2:10pm). I called at 2:15pm (giving Sue a 5 minute buffer in case she was late). She had left for the courthouse. I called back at 3:15pm. She was gone for the day. Gone for an emergency. Gone without being able to be reached. No pager, no cell phone. So now it's 12:49am and I'm still wondering what came out of the lunch Sue had with John today. So many questions unanswered. When will we find out?
Sadly Elisabeth Kubler-Ross died on Tuesday night, while Avery and I were staying in Cortland, New York. She is most famous for the five psychological stages of dying (denial, anger, bargaining, depression, & acceptance). I feel that with the house going the way it has, especially getting the news suddenly last Tuesday about the house, that I've been through this five stage rollercoaster. I don't want to trivialize death or really compare the seriousness of dying to the simplicity of buying a house, but I do feel that buying a house is one of the most challenging things I've done. It's taken a little bit of everything I've learned, from physical strength loading and unloading and packing and repacking all of our stuff, to quick decision making and firm decision making, to handling emotionally draining days where nothing gets done and patience is the only thing we have left. I know we'll survive. We'll ride out the storm. Thanks to Dr. Kubler-Ross we have a path to take to getting back on the right mental track.
Tomorrow (August 26th) we'll talk to Sue. She'll have some answers. I hope they work best in our favor.
Avery and I are in Ithaca, New York today. Avery has orientation today and tomorrow and I've been driving around Ithaca finding places to eat, places to shop, places to work and potential customers. Here's a picture from College Hill (near Ithaca College) looking down to Cayuga Lake.
I also took a few minutes today to call the litigation lawfirm. As of 4:30pm, the Seller's lawyer has not returned a call to our litigation lawyer. Without this contact, we haven't been able to move forward at all. It is now August 24th, a full week has gone by and there has been no real change in the status of our house. Avery and I did drive by the property on Slaterville Road today and noted that the "For Sale" sign is gone. I'm not sure what conclusions to draw from that. In addition, the yard is a mess. Between the lack of mowing for the summer, a good portion of the front yard has been dug up (Most likely due to the septic work - though I can only guess what else could be going on with the place).
One of my friends emailed me and questioned posting the minor surface legal details of the house while we are pending litigation. I have no idea if or how this blog could be used against me in the case. Do you have any ideas? Do you have any suggestions?
I wish I had a better update than that. I'm off to a Cornell Ice Cream Social with the Urban Planning graduate class of 2006.
